Good for Roger.

[bsmooth]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/goose-gossage-new-york-yankees-says-rogers-clemens-does-not-belong-in-hall-of-fame-062212

[Pappy13]

Probably my ass. Goose isn't buying it because he knows damn well he would have been taking them if they were available when he pitched. You don't think the Goose was throwin' down Bennies or Greenies when he played? Yeah right. Whatever and I have a bridge I'd like you take a look at...

[bsmooth]

Probably my ass. Goose isn't buying it because he knows damn well he would have been taking them if they were available when he pitched. You don't think the Goose was throwin' down Bennies or Greenies when he played? Yeah right. Whatever and I have a bridge I'd like you take a look at...

I agree. Which makes it even more unlikely that Clemons never took anything.

[MaineDolFan]

I have.  So has bsmooth.  His accomplishments will be forever tainted by this scandal, and who's to say he wasn't using cheating his entire career?

And if the best you can do is take some swipes at me below the belt with comments like that, than maybe you should just keep quiet.

1:  Anyone paying attention would know better.  Crap career my ass.  Crap statement.  Don't like it?  I don't really care.  I am also enabled to have an opinion on this site as well.  My opinion on this thread is your opinion is bunk.  Additionally, I don't appreciate having anyone putting words in my mouth, but we'll get to that in a bit.

2:  Don't speak as though you know me.  You don't.

3:  Below the belt?  I'm not letting the world know (at every chance I get) that I'm educating the youth of America...and then taking a meat cleaver to the English language beyond recovery.  Ain't enough stitches in the Bronx ER sewing it back up.  I'm quite open about my hack job(s), thanks.  When I write entries for this web site I seek out help from Stroke.  My editors used to hated me, I created more work for everyone.  I know my weaknesses.  Ya know what?  I'm not an educator.

4:  Don't tell me what to do.  "Quiet" is not my style, slick, and if you don't like it - you could also find a different forum to talk in.  This one, when you make a crap statement, you'll be challenged.  You made a crap statement.  You've been challenged.  It's my fault you have thin skin? 

You're the one making assumptions about what you think you know about someone you've never met.  Don't come on here talking about "below the belt."  You made a personal statement, based on nothing, about someone you don't know.  Again, do some research - or go find a hobby.  Maybe maritime law, I don't know.  What I do know is you shouldn't speak to someone like you know them when you don't.  It shows a lack of cuth.

This is all.

Completely back on track, I don't believe for a second Clemens took anything earlier in his career.  By the time the "steroid ERA" started, Clemens was an All-Star pitcher (by about 7 seasons).  From a medical standpoint, I don't believe a body (any body) is physically capable of withstanding 23 seasons of cycling without a complete and utter break down.  There are significant short and long term side effects from prolonged use / abuse.  I think there are certain players that you can almost point a finger on a map and say "here" and footnote when the use may have started.  Clemens and Bonds are case points "A" and "B", respectively, on this list.  Both players were also HOF worthy well before they decided to dabble.  I liken when they did to Bill Gates playing Power Ball each week.  Sure, he could.  But why? 

[Phishfan]

  I'm not an educator.

You aren't the only one not an educator in this discussion.

[bsmooth]

Completely back on track, I don't believe for a second Clemens took anything earlier in his career.  By the time the "steroid ERA" started, Clemens was an All-Star pitcher (by about 7 seasons).  From a medical standpoint, I don't believe a body (any body) is physically capable of withstanding 23 seasons of cycling without a complete and utter break down.  There are significant short and long term side effects from prolonged use / abuse.  I think there are certain players that you can almost point a finger on a map and say "here" and footnote when the use may have started.  Clemens and Bonds are case points "A" and "B", respectively, on this list.  Both players were also HOF worthy well before they decided to dabble.  I liken when they did to Bill Gates playing Power Ball each week.  Sure, he could.  But why? 

Maine it is the second half of his career I am addressing. He was in a decline in his mid 30's and suddenly regained the power and dominance of his prime and kept it up through his 30's and into his 40's.
That screams of PED's.

[MaineDolFan]

^^Agreed.  Like I said, I think you can point at his career like a road map and almost say "turn here."  I think he had HOF numbers before then.

[Spider-Dan]

Maine, would you say that his turn coincided with the point where BOS got rid of him?

[MaineDolFan]

Not really.

His last year in Boston he was 10-13.  His next season he went 21-7.  But you need to look inside the number of that 10-13 year.  3.63 ERA, 242 innings pitched, *257* strike outs.  Two years before that?  2.85. 

His years leading up to Toronto:

1992 2.41 18-11  IP 246.2  SO 208
1993 4.46 11-14  IP 191.2  SO 160
1994 2.85    9-7   IP 170.2   SO 168
1995 4.18 10-5   IP  140.0  SO 132
1996 3.63 10-13 IP  252.2  SO 257

People tend to look at record (W/L) alone when they see the jump from Boston to Toronto.  They also hear the GM's statement of "he is in the sunset of his career" statement (back in the day) and believe it.

His two years north of the Border he posted 2.05 and 2.65 ERA seasons (back to back Cy Youngs) and won 21-7 and 20-6. 

His body of work was mostly consistent for a team mostly consistent.  Boston was an 85-ish win team (3rd place), Toronto was around the same.  He didn't benefit either way from being on a "head knocker" team until after leaving Toronto.

His body of work, as a pitcher, was consistent enough that his numbers don't jump out at me, Boston to Toronto.  You can't look at win / losses in baseball, not for a pitcher.  So much of his 21-7 season (and 20-6) was completely and utterly out of his control.  What was in his control (for the most part)?  ERA, WHIP, things of this nature.  It was all pretty even-steven.  He had posted low 2's before.

Where I am concerned is any time a late 30's guy is throwing harder than ever, placing the ball better than ever and not breaking down...

[bsmooth]

Not really.

His last year in Boston he was 10-13.  His next season he went 21-7.  But you need to look inside the number of that 10-13 year.  3.63 ERA, 242 innings pitched, *257* strike outs.  Two years before that?  2.85. 

His years leading up to Toronto:

1992 2.41 18-11  IP 246.2  SO 208
1993 4.46 11-14  IP 191.2  SO 160
1994 2.85    9-7   IP 170.2   SO 168
1995 4.18 10-5   IP  140.0  SO 132
1996 3.63 10-13 IP  252.2  SO 257

People tend to look at record (W/L) alone when they see the jump from Boston to Toronto.  They also hear the GM's statement of "he is in the sunset of his career" statement (back in the day) and believe it.

His two years north of the Border he posted 2.05 and 2.65 ERA seasons (back to back Cy Youngs) and won 21-7 and 20-6. 

His body of work was mostly consistent for a team mostly consistent.  Boston was an 85-ish win team (3rd place), Toronto was around the same.  He didn't benefit either way from being on a "head knocker" team until after leaving Toronto.

His body of work, as a pitcher, was consistent enough that his numbers don't jump out at me, Boston to Toronto.  You can't look at win / losses in baseball, not for a pitcher.  So much of his 21-7 season (and 20-6) was completely and utterly out of his control.  What was in his control (for the most part)?  ERA, WHIP, things of this nature.  It was all pretty even-steven.  He had posted low 2's before.

Where I am concerned is any time a late 30's guy is throwing harder than ever, placing the ball better than ever and not breaking down...

I am too. He was not the same pitcher he was prior when his sudden resurgence. Unless some other evidence comes out to show how how he regained his youth and vigor, it will always be PED's for me.

[Pappy13]

Maine it is the second half of his career I am addressing. He was in a decline in his mid 30's and suddenly regained the power and dominance of his prime and kept it up through his 30's and into his 40's.
That screams of PED's.

So we should assume that Nolan Ryan was also using PED's from say around '81 (when he was 34) and had a career best 1.69 ERA to the end of his career?

[bsmooth]

So we should assume that Nolan Ryan was also using PED's from say around '81 (when he was 34) and had a career best 1.69 ERA to the end of his career?

Besides that one season, can you show where he was having an obvious decline in his career and then went on a tear as good as his best years in his youth?

[Pappy13]

Yes but I really don't have to since you both questioned whether anyone could sustain that type of excellence thru his late 30's and into his 40's without PED's which he did.

From '72 thru '77 (6 years) Ryan had an ERA under 3.00 and won the Cy Young 4 times.

Then from '78 thru '80 (3 years) Ryan never had an ERA under 3.00 and never won the Cy Young. Down years by Ryan standards.

Then in '81 (when he was 34) he had a career best 1.69 ERA which was half that of the preceeding 3 year average and won the Cy Young.

From '81 thru '89 (9 years) he had an ERA under 3.00 3 times and won the Cy Young 4 times during a time he went from being 34 to 42 years old.

You must admit that If Roger's career "screams" of PED's, then at the very least Nolan's career "shouts" of PED's or the possibility exists that it can be done without PED's.

[MaineDolFan]

Perhaps.

Let me let you all in a lot little secret about pitchers:  They all cheat.  Every last one of them.  The movie "Major League" was cute, witty, funny, clever...and on the mark.  Every one of them has something in their hair, something up their nose, on their hip.  Something to grip the ball a little tighter, to make it drop a little harder, cut a little more, spin a little faster...

Pitchers cheat.  Every last one.  We do it in Little League, Babe Ruth, American Legion, College, the minors and MLB. 

Nolan Ryan's last pitch was 98 miles per hour.  No, it would not shock me if the man had a little help.  Both  Clemens and Ryan were breaking down at the end.  Old age, finally catching up to them?  Or the steroids finally catching up?  We'll never know...but the numbers to end their careers certainly look an awful lot a like, don't they?

Ryan
13-9  3.44  204 IP
12-6  2.91  173 IP
 5-9   3.72  157 IP
 5-5   4.88    66 IP

Clemens
18-4 2.98 214 IP
13-8 1.87 211 IP
 7-6  2.30 113 IP
 6-6  4.18   99 IP

[BigDaddyFin]

I'm glad he got off.  The fact that the government wasted 3 years and a couple million dollars on this is laughable.  Why congress decided to stick their nose into this is still beyond me.  We all know they took steroids, there was no reason to have a congressional inquiry especially when we have a million other more important things to do.  Baseball didn't give a shit and instead of going after the league, they went after the players. 

I went after Bonds for being a juicehead, he probably shouldn't have gone to jail over it though.  And Clemens shouldn't either.