Replacement Refs [merged x2]

[Phishfan]

Page 39. Completed or Intercepted pass. Item 5 - Simultaneous catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

So the question then is when do you have "control" of an intercepted ball?

Page 5. Player Possession. Item 2: Possession of loose ball: To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and maintain control of the ball long enough to perform any act common to the game. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, there is no possession.

I interpret the rule different. The key is the use of the word "control". Your page 5 rule specifically uses the word control as part of the elements making posession. Therefore control and posession must be meant to be different things. The page 39 rule specifcally uses the word control rather than posession.

[Spider-Dan]

Why did you choose the 2nd picture of your set? The first picture is CLEARLY closer to the time when they first touched the ground which is when a simultaneous catch would be ruled. Even your first picture is AFTER the point at which they touched the ground and it's not clear in any way shape or form where the ball is at the time of that picture. I'm referring to the below image.

Hey, remember the play last year in which Megatron caught the ball in the endzone while touching the ground, but the pass was ruled incomplete because he didn't maintain control all the way past going to the ground?  Consistency.  The fact that one of the two officials standing right there (and on the ball side, mind you) ruled a touchback shows that at best, the call was disputed.

Furthermore, the standard of "simultaneous catch" has never applied to a pass in which the defensive player is cradling the ball to his chest, but the offensive player can wrap his arms around the defender and simply place his hands on the ball until they both hit the ground; if that were the standard, the number of interceptions would be slashed dramatically.

And in all of those pictures, you can clearly see that whatever may be happening with the ball, it is definitely not being cradled to Tate's chest (because Jennings' torso prevents it).

[Pappy13]

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood.

That's exactly what I'm saying too. 

[Pappy13]

However, you're still wrong on the call. 

Won't be the first time.

[Pappy13]

And in all of those pictures, you can clearly see that whatever may be happening with the ball, it is definitely not being cradled to Tate's chest (because Jennings' torso prevents it).

Nothing is clear if you can't see the ball. If you find a picture that does clearly show this one way or the other and the call was wrong, I'll gladly admit. Seems like a moot point at this point anyway since it clearly SHOULD have been an offensive pass interference call.

[Pappy13]

I interpret the rule different. The key is the use of the word "control". Your page 5 rule specifically uses the word control as part of the elements making posession. Therefore control and posession must be meant to be different things. The page 39 rule specifcally uses the word control rather than posession.

Fair enough but you have to admit that it's consistent with what the replacement officials ruled and the NFL has agreed that there wasn't enough evidence to support a reversal of that call. If you can find another portion of the official NFL rules which you think applies, I'll review it. I don't proclaim to be an expert on it, I just know what I believe to be the rules from having watched the NFL over the last 30 plus years. I certainly could be wrong.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I like the line Brandon Spikes used...

"Foot locker called, they want their employees back"   

[Pappy13]

Here's the best I can do to show the play. I took the replay that is showing on NFL.COM's site, downloaded the HQ version, ran it full screen and tried to stop the action at the most important time and take a couple of screen shots. Below is the result. Each pic is taken a fraction of a second after the one before it.

From the first picture you can still see the ball (I've drawn a red circle around it) and both Tate and Jennings hands appear to be on it or quite close to it. Notice that both players are off the ground.

By the 2nd pic the ball has disappeared, it's impossible for me to find it, it could be in Jennings chest, but Tate's arm is clearly in between Jennings arms and his chest so for all we know it's in Tates arms. Notice that Tate is now starting to hit the ground, Jennings is still in the air and bent over slighty which is why it's so hard to determine where the ball is.

By the 3rd pic Tate is on the ground and Jennings is starting to hit the ground. It's at this point where possession must be established. I cannot find the ball here again because Jennings is bent over. Jennings appears to have the ball in his chest, but it's also possible the ball is in Tates chest or very near to it since you can't see it. A second or so later we have the images that Spider posted when they are on the ground.

I still say it's impossible to tell from this who had possession of the ball when they came down and therefore I say it's a simultaneous catch which would go to the receiver, the pass interference call not withstanding.

http://imgur.com/a/BDUQ5

[CF DolFan]

No offense dude but those pictures are pretty bad. Woith all the very clear HD pics and that's what you choose?

[Pappy13]

No offense dude but those pictures are pretty bad. Woith all the very clear HD pics and that's what you choose?

I didn't choose these, I created them myself with the crude tools I have to work with. If you have better pictures that show these exact same instances in time, I would LOVE to see them.

But if you don't like those, I went back to the drawing board and created another set of images. This is from a slightly different angle. Here again in the first pic you can see the ball clearly.  Note that it's directly above Tate's head from this angle and both players hands are near the ball. It's definately not in Jennings chest at this point.

In the second pic the ball is slightly lower and you can just see the tip now. Notice that Tate is just off the ground here and the ball is still directly above his head so it's coming straight down. It still does not appear to be pressed to Jennings chest, it may be against his shoulder pads.

In the third pic the ball is now out of sight, but if you follow the path of the ball from the first 2 pics, the ball is directly behind Tates head at this point and Jennings body is NOT between Tate and the ball. His arm would be between Tate and the ball but that's the most you can say. Both of Tate's hands are out of sight but they appear to be in a position that both of them could be on the ball at this point the ball being between his arms and Jennings and he's now on the ground, Jennings has not hit the ground yet.

Again, nothing here convinces me that Tate didn't have both hands on the ball at this point where he's on the ground and establishing possession of the ball along with Jennings. This is a classic example of simultaneous possession in my opinion.

http://imgur.com/a/PoE5o

[Phishfan]

That's exactly what I'm saying too. 

That is not exactly what you said. You said the NFL came out and said it was a simultaneous catch. That is different than saying they agree the evidence in replay is not enough to make an overrule. As I said in the rest of my post, the NFL went to great lengths to not say they thought it was a simultaneous catch which is what you said.

[Phishfan]

I still say it's impossible to tell from this who had possession of the ball when they came down and therefore I say it's a simultaneous catch which would go to the receiver, the pass interference call not withstanding.

But the simultaneous catch rule says nothing about the word posession (which we agree has the elements of being on the ground). The rule says control of the ball and you can clearly see from one angle of the videos that Jennings has two hands on the ball controlling it while Tate has his rigth arm free. Therefore Jenning clearly had control of the ball first and then Tate simply grabbed on at some point.

[suck for luck]

I think Phishfan has nailed it. Jennings has *control* of the ball from the very beginning. Tate comes along much later and leeches on. If you start with the simultaneous catch rule then all this interpretation of *possession* is moot.

[Fins4ever]

I like the line Brandon Spikes used...

"Foot locker called, they want their employees back"   

At this point I am thinking that "the village called, they are missing their idiots".

[Fins4ever]

I didn't choose these, I created them myself with the crude tools I have to work with. If you have better pictures that show these exact same instances in time, I would LOVE to see them.

http://imgur.com/a/PoE5o

It will take photoshop to save face for the NFL. Can you somehow just eliminate Jennings from the pictures and send a copy to Goodell? lol