Dallas police officer enters man's apartment and shoots him (split from anthem thread)

[Spider-Dan]

Ironically, I think the murder charge is a cop-out in this case.  I think they could reasonably get manslaughter, but there is 0.0% chance of getting a murder conviction.  This seems like theater.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Ironically, I think the murder charge is a cop-out in this case.  I think they could reasonably get manslaughter, but there is 0.0% chance of getting a murder conviction.  This seems like theater.

Murder will be a hard conviction but it is the correct charge.  With all non-police defendants the SOP is charge with the most server conceivable charge and then offer a plea deal for what you can actually get a conviction for.  Unlike with Guyger where they undercharged.  Only police get undercharged everyone else gets over charged and then settle for less.  Nice to see that this cop isn't getting special treatment.  If he is charged with only manslaughter, DA can't offer a plea of manslaughter but something less.

But there could be some theater going on.  If the stance of the department is the cop was following standard procedure and was defending himself then their will be riots and the demands the police chief be fired.  If the stance of the department is the cop's behavior deviated so far from SOP to consider his actions murder than the department and leadership are not at fault. 

[Phishfan]

I disagree. If the door is open the police should investigate. Obviously none of us know the whole story yet but in no case should an innocent person be shot.

There was a screen door from what I understand. Nosy neighbors caused this. I open my doors and windows to get fresh air all the time.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

There was a screen door from what I understand. Nosy neighbors caused this. I open my doors and windows to get fresh air all the time.

And if your neighbors think something is amiss at your home and do contact the police, the police have an obligation to investigate without going into Seal Team 6 assault mode. 

[Phishfan]

My neighbors know better, just as I wouldn't call the police either.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

My neighbors know better, just as I wouldn't call the police either.

If we are going to blame the neighbor rather than the police than our entire police system is beyond broken.  Police have an obligation to investigate without executing everyone they encounter. 

[Phishfan]

If we are going to blame the neighbor rather than the police than our entire police system is beyond broken.  Police have an obligation to investigate without executing everyone they encounter. 

I agree with that completely. I'm just saying they never should have been there.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I agree with that completely. I'm just saying they never should have been there.

I remember being told as a child that if you see something suspicious let a police officer know, they are trained to investigate and figure out if it is something or nothing.  I was always taught to turn to the police for help. 

I know when I lived in an apartment building when I would hear screaming from adjacent apartments, I would struggle with the question, "should I contact the police?"  If all that was occurring was yelling than involving the police was unnecessary, but at the same time I didn't want to find out after the fact that it was a violent domestic dispute and I did nothing. 

Most of the time I did not call the police.  One time I heard female screams of "Please Stop! you are hurting me" and did call the police. Turns out he was going thru their photo album and cutting in half the pictures not assaulting her.  Nevertheless, I feel I did the right thing in calling the police.  A month later he moved out. 

 

[Phishfan]

Screaming is worlds apart from someone getting fresh air into the house.

[Spider-Dan]

This discussion is crazy.

You should be able to call a non-emergency number for police assistance AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY REASON without fear that the police might come and kill someone.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

The former officer is refusing to cooperate into the inquiry.  He is free on bail after spending 3 hours and 15 minutes in custody.

[Dave Gray]

This discussion is crazy.

You should be able to call a non-emergency number for police assistance AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY REASON without fear that the police might come and kill someone.

Absolutely.  Nobody is saying anything as otherwise.

I see this more akin to gross medical malpractice that results in death, rather than murder.  Lose your job, be civilly liable, etc ... but you wouldn't put a doctor in prison for accidentally killing someone by being negligent.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Absolutely.  Nobody is saying anything as otherwise.

I see this more akin to gross medical malpractice that results in death, rather than murder.  Lose your job, be civilly liable, etc ... but you wouldn't put a doctor in prison for accidentally killing someone by being negligent.

Doctors can be charged with murder for malpractice even if they didn’t intend to kill the victim.  It occurs extremely rarely, because it requires the doctor to not just negligent but to have a reckless disregard for the life of the patient.  

I would say in this case the cop wasn’t just negligent in his duties, but had a reckless disregard for the safety of the resident of the home.  

Also the issue isn't intent.  Aaron Dean intended to kill Atatiana Jefferson.  Just like Amber Guyger intended to kill Botham Jean.  The issue in both cases is not did the shooter intent to kill the victim but if killing was justified (self defense, defense of others, castle defense, etc)

[Dave Gray]

I don't think you can argue the killing was justified.  But you can argue that it was a mistake made by an officer on duty, with a reason to be there.  With Guyger, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that there were fishy circumstances.  I don't see the two the same at all.

It's like, if I'm hunting and I'm startled by you walking out of the bushes, I might shoot you, thinking you're a bear trying to attack me.  I'd be wrong.  But that's not murder, in my opinion.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I don't think you can argue the killing was justified.

I agree with that.  An unjustified killing of another is murder. 

  But you can argue that it was a mistake made by an officer on duty, with a reason to be there.

 
Now, you are justifying it.  Basically the only justification is self defense.

  With Guyger, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that there were fishy circumstances.  I don't see the two the same at all.

They are not the exact same.  But I believe Guyger's version of the events and still consider what she did murder.  She intended to kill him and was not justified in doing so. 

It's like, if I'm hunting and I'm startled by you walking out of the bushes, I might shoot you, thinking you're a bear trying to attack me.  I'd be wrong.  But that's not murder, in my opinion.

That would likely get you manslaughter. Which I think is ultimately what he will be convicted of.  However, in that case you are intending to kill a bear not a human.